Lost

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locksley
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Re: Lost

Postby locksley » Mon May 24, 2010 4:10 pm

Ah okay, thanks for the code tip. :D I think I'll just post it regularly anyway lol

For me, it's clear that the island time was all real. A couple of things confirm that it all happened, the conversation between Hurley and Ben being one of the main confirmations. In their little bit of reminiscing about being #1 and #2, they are remembering being the protectors of the island after the events we saw unfold with Jack and Desmond in the cave. It's clear from their comments that Hurley and Ben likely went on to live a full life on the island together, successful as it's 'guardians'.

Christian's speech to Jack was another big confirmation: “This is the place that you all made together so that you could find one another. The most important part of your life WAS THE TIME YOU SPEND WITH THESE PEOPLE. That’s why all of you are here.”
He clearly states to Jack the most important part of his life was the 'time spent' with everyone. (Had they all died in the crash, he would not have made that statement).
They were all connected by their experiences on the island, which allowed the 'flash-sideways' to be created as an eventual reunion place as each of them passed away.

Another hint (though less obvious) was Eloise's concern for her son, Daniel, remembering that she had killed him. In her guilt, she apparently wanted more time with him before he was 'awakened' to that fact.

Michael was not in the church because of what he had done before he died. He's stuck on the island because of acts committed during his time there. (which the actor himself confirms) Again, another indicator that everything we saw on island indeed happened.

Ben was 'invited' into the church, but didn't feel ready, even though he had at least somewhat redeemed himself in the end. (especially by agreeing to stay with Hurley on the island.)

The only people dead in the finale, on island, were those who had already died (Sun, Jin, etc) ... then finally, Jack.
Jack (as is so Jack ;)) just took the longest to catch on in the sideways flashes, after his death on the island as we saw it. Once he did understand, they were finally all 'together' again, and could move on ...

I recall the writers, quite some time ago, promised that the people on the island were not all dead, that they did not all die in the crash. They kept their word. :)

Heck, Hurley and Ben (as well as Rose and Bernard) could have lived to be 100 on island lol ... that must have been fun lol.
We'll never know how long it took Jack to realize the truth after he died. But that mystery is okay by me. :D

Jack's eye closing as the ender ... PERFECT.
"He walked into mid-autumn, hearing nothing but the winds. One night as he sat before his fire, vaguely feeling the winds urge against his shape, he looked down and saw the starred harp in his hands ..." (Mckillip, The Riddle Master trilogy)

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Re: Lost

Postby barkybree » Tue May 25, 2010 12:33 am

They didn't die in the plane crash, and that's one thing I was very glad for.


Um, are you sure?

The scene during the closing credits of the Oceanic 815 wreckage in total silence, to me indicates they really were all dead. There's nothing going on at the island except wind.

Overall, I'm pleased with how they wrapped up the main arc, but am not as pleased with the "flash sideways" conclusion. I would have preferred some sort of "split realities that join when Jack reseats the sealing rock" or something. Yes, that arc had scenes with great emotional payoff, but having the ironically-named Christian Shepherd show up and give afterlife speeches? Yick.

I guess I'm not the metaphysical type. :P

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Re: Lost

Postby locksley » Tue May 25, 2010 1:23 am

For myself, yes, there's no doubt in my mind. I thought there were enough clues/comments/events in the finale to tell us that what happened on the island absolutely happened.

As well, it would make no sense to even have the purgatorial sideways- timeline if they all died in the crash. (as that would be like having two purgatories, or whatever word you wish to use.) Redundant. ;)
There would be no need to 'create' a place (as it was put) where they could all gather again, after death, because of the important bonds they forged not. (if the island had already been the afterlife.) They certainly didn't form those important bonds on the plane ride. lol. Nor did they form them in any kind of purgatory - Desmond made them all remember their bonds forged during their TIME ON THE ISLAND. ;)
Think too, of the huge emotionalism expressed as each of them remembered the others most special to them. That speaks of time spent together, of sharing significant events, love, tragedy, etc. More proof that it it all was very real.

Christian's speech was key: there is 'no now'; 'the most important time you spent was with these people', some died later, etc.
Hurley and Ben's talk was key, recalling the time after.

I think the island shot you mentioned was their way of paying tribute to what (and where) started it all. That was my first thought when I saw that.

And after reading lots of reviews, discussions, etc, since the episode, I'm even more convinced this is correct. :)

I don't believe the writers would go the way of them having all died in the crash, not after saying emphatically stating in a 2007 podcast that the island was not a purgatory, and that they were not all dead. Lindolof:

"The following two facts are true. I swear it.
A. They're not in purgatory.
B. They're not dead.
If we did such a thing after repeatedly stating otherwise, we'd be tarred and feathered!"


(this came about because of Naomi's revelation that the wreckage had been 'found' and there were no survivors.)

The writers created a purgatory later, but it wasn't the island. We saw it this last season. :D

And really, I don't think they take such an easy way out. The writers have put so much thought, cleverness, and care into this series; I don't believe they would end it by saying they all died the first day. :D

I just think it's very clear that they survived the crash, that what we saw happen, happened. :)
"He walked into mid-autumn, hearing nothing but the winds. One night as he sat before his fire, vaguely feeling the winds urge against his shape, he looked down and saw the starred harp in his hands ..." (Mckillip, The Riddle Master trilogy)

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Re: Lost

Postby afoolofatook » Tue May 25, 2010 2:37 am

Hi everybody!! :D

Okay, I admit right up front that the only season I watched all the way through was...one. Otherwise, it's been hit and miss - mostly miss - until the last month. So I probably have some 'duh' questions. Like:

So why couldn't anyone who got pregnant on the island carry to term? The fact that they couldn't would make sense if they were dead along - which I don't believe for all the reasons Locks outlined.

What was the point of Jack having a son in purgatory?

Didn't Richard's wife appear on the island? She was the one talking to Hurley awhile back, right? She was never on the island, was she? What was that about?

Where's Walt?

Was Claire holding Aaron in the church/next life waiting room? All the others were there because their experience with the survivors on the island was the most significant part of their lives, but I thought Aaron was brought back to the outside world as a baby and never went back. Why would he be there?

And can someone please explain the golden light/waterfall and stone cork thing to me?? What was that? Why were they earthquakes and general ickiness when the water was drained out of the pool? And what was the role of the island in the world (or dimension or time or whatever)??

Okay, that's it for now. :)


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Re: Lost

Postby afoolofatook » Tue May 25, 2010 2:41 am

Except, did anyone else have a Cracks of Doom flashback when Desmond went into the light well? And what made him think pulling the plug was the right thing to do? What was he trying to accomplish? Destroy the island? If so, why did Jack go after him and fix it?

Okay, now I think I'm done. For a bit. ;)

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Re: Lost

Postby barkybree » Tue May 25, 2010 3:03 am

So why couldn't anyone who got pregnant on the island carry to term? The fact that they couldn't would make sense if they were dead along - which I don't believe for all the reasons Locks outlined.


Two reasons, depending on what camp you're in.

If you're a physicist, it was the strong electromagnetic fields messing with biology. If your metaphysical, it was because brothers' (Jacob and the Man in Black) little game didn't allow for pregnancies. They were playing mind games with folks from the outside as part of their "bet", it didn't involve newborns.

What was the point of Jack having a son in purgatory?


So I'm confused a bit on this one. Folks are talking about Jack's son as if he never existed except in the flash-sideways. But wasn't it established he had an estranged son IRL? So in purgatory, he just had a son who loved him.

Didn't Richard's wife appear on the island? She was the one talking to Hurley awhile back, right? She was never on the island, was she? What was that about?


Correct. It was about her making a far-reach from the realm of the dead to convince Richard to do the right thing.

Where's Walt?


Written out of the show because he grew too big in the time of the filming. :P

Was Claire holding Aaron in the church/next life waiting room? All the others were there because their experience with the survivors on the island was the most significant part of their lives, but I thought Aaron was brought back to the outside world as a baby and never went back. Why would he be there?


What's she gonna do, leave her baby in the hospital by himself??

And can someone please explain the golden light/waterfall and stone cork thing to me?? What was that? Why were they earthquakes and general ickiness when the water was drained out of the pool? And what was the role of the island in the world (or dimension or time or whatever)??


Unexplained in its entirety, and that's probably a good thing because, at its core, Lost is about the characters and not about things like the laws of physics ;) . There's clearly a power source on the island with powers both physical (electromagnetism obviously, plus some sort of time/dimensional qualities) and metaphysical (Jacob's immortality & other powers, etc.). I guess letting the power out caused the island to fall apart and Smoke Monster to lose his powers.

If the island had a purpose in the world, they never went there. Leave it for the movie. :lol:

Except, did anyone else have a Cracks of Doom flashback when Desmond went into the light well? And what made him think pulling the plug was the right thing to do? What was he trying to accomplish? Destroy the island? If so, why did Jack go after him and fix it?


Desmond knew that Smokey was connected to the power source. Destroy the power source, destroy Smokey. When Desmond pulled the plug, Smokey was mortal (Jack punched him in the face and he started to bleed). Then after Smokey was dead, there was no reason for the island to be destroyed, so Jack tried to put the plug back in to save the island and the remaining folks on it.

Did that help at all? :lol:

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Re: Lost

Postby locksley » Tue May 25, 2010 3:13 am

I have literally one minute to post at the moment, LOL.

I'd been trying to find a transcript of this ... finally did, and wanted to quickly post the whole conversation between Jack and Christian: (with some key stuff bolded)

Christian: Hey kiddo.
Jack: Dad?
Christian: Hello, Jack.
Jack: I don't understand. You died.
Christian: Yeah. Yes, I did.
Jack: Then how are you here right now?
Christian: How are you here?
Jack: ... I died too.
Christian: It's okay. It's okay, son.
*Jack cries*
Jack: I love you, Dad.
Christian: I love you too, son.
Jack: Are you real?
Christian: I sure hope so. *laughs* You're real. Everything that's ever happened to you is real. All those people in the church, they're all real too.
Jack: They're all ... they're all dead?
Christian: Everyone dies sometime, kiddo. Some of them before you, some long after you.
Jack: Why are they all here now?
Christian: Well, there is no now, here.
Jack: Where are we, Dad?
Christian: Well, this is a place that you all made together so that you could all find one another. The most important part of your life was the time that you spent with these people. That's why these people are here. No one does it alone, Jack. You needed them, and they needed you.
Jack: For what?
Christian: To remember ... and let go.
Jack: Kate - she said we were leaving.
Christian: Not leaving, no. Moving on.
Jack: Where are we going?
Christian: Let's go find out.


****

So Christian specifically tells Jack it was all real, that some of the people died before him and some, long after him. He answers the question: they indeed lived it.
"He walked into mid-autumn, hearing nothing but the winds. One night as he sat before his fire, vaguely feeling the winds urge against his shape, he looked down and saw the starred harp in his hands ..." (Mckillip, The Riddle Master trilogy)

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Re: Lost

Postby locksley » Tue May 25, 2010 5:38 am

Hi Donna. :D

Thoughts on some of your questions (geez it's 1 in the morning lol .. I'm sleepy!)

**

Jack's son - Jack only ever had a son in the flash-sideways. My feeling on that is that in their purgatory, existence was idealized, at least for some people. (haven't quite worked all that out yet lol). Jack has a son, Sawyer not being a criminal, Hurley being lucky rather than unlucky, and so on. Maybe, for example, Jack 'created' himself a son because of his problems with his father; he wanted to be a good dad.

**

Woman not being able to carry to term:

Lindelof stated that the show wouldn't specifically answer that, but said he felt it could be figured out. He added: "Clearly Ethan was born on the island in 1977,” continues Lindelof. “That’s the last baby that we know of who was born on the island. And then something happened between 1977 and when our show takes place in 2004 (when Claire arrived eight months pregnant) where it’s been a long time since women have been able to have babies on the island. What might have happened between those two points that could have created fertility issues?”

So something to do with the time-loop created by 'the Incident', maybe. Tough one. :D

**

Why was Aaron in the church: LOL Barky!

This is a puzzler. Well, he was born on the island, and was there for quite a while. In a way, he did have a relationship with many of the survivors.There's the possibility that he, too, died. We don't know how old some of these people lived to be.
Or maybe he was just there as a huge tie between Charlie and Claire, as part of their story. Though really, if that's the case, he was probably better left out of that scene. :)

**

Where's Walt: LOL Barky ... I like your answer.

Yawn ... more tomorrow. :D
"He walked into mid-autumn, hearing nothing but the winds. One night as he sat before his fire, vaguely feeling the winds urge against his shape, he looked down and saw the starred harp in his hands ..." (Mckillip, The Riddle Master trilogy)

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Re: Lost

Postby gaffergamgee » Tue May 25, 2010 10:55 am

I'm inclined to go with Locksley's theory -that it all really happened and that the purgatory/alternative timeline was a place they all came together from whatever period of real life they died in. Sorry to see that Michael didn't make it...didn't he at least partially redeem himself on the freighter? After all, if Ben could be redeemed, why not Michael? Also, wasn't Anna Lucia redeemed also, so why was she taking bribes in purgatory? And I was also hoping Eko would show up...
Can we also deduce that, post-island, Kate and Sawyer never got together, as we had Kate/Jack and Sawyer/Juliet team-ups in the afterlife?
Overall, I really liked the finale, but I'm a sucker for happy endings anyway. I loved the grins on Sun and Jin's faces when, after they remembered where they were, they realised that Sawyer was a cop in the afterlife.
If there was one thing I found hard to accept it was the idea of manipulative, duplicitous Ben ever playing second fiddle to straightforward, innocent Hurley. In fact I thought Ben would have a much bigger part to play in the finale, rather than just 'tagging along for the ride' so to speak.
And finally, I really loved the final scene where Jack closes his eyes after seeng the plane carrying his friends to freedom pass overhead...a perfect closing shot.
Finally, FINALLY...I would like to congratulate Miles for making it to the end of the series and off the island alive...if there ever was a red-shirt I thought Miles was it!

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Re: Lost

Postby gaffergamgee » Tue May 25, 2010 3:12 pm

And another thing... the fight at the 'heart of the Island' was a little Frodo-and-Gollum-at-Mount-Doomish, but it reminded me even more of the final episode of Deep Space Nine, where Sisko took on Gul Dukat at the fire caves of Bajor.

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Re: Lost

Postby TomCotton » Tue May 25, 2010 6:33 pm

Hurley sees dead people, but they don't know they are dead. :P
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Re: Lost

Postby locksley » Tue May 25, 2010 7:15 pm

:D

Just for fun:

Image

Image
"He walked into mid-autumn, hearing nothing but the winds. One night as he sat before his fire, vaguely feeling the winds urge against his shape, he looked down and saw the starred harp in his hands ..." (Mckillip, The Riddle Master trilogy)

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Re: Lost

Postby locksley » Tue May 25, 2010 8:16 pm

And finally, I really loved the final scene where Jack closes his eyes after seeng the plane carrying his friends to freedom pass overhead...a perfect closing shot.


Completely agree on that point. They could not have closed it all any better, and it really had incredible impact. (at least, for me :D)
It began with Jack, it ended with Jack. That was as it should be.

And LOL ... agreed on Miles as well. I can't count how many times I thought he was a goner.

Unexplained in its entirety, and that's probably a good thing because, at its core, Lost is about the characters and not about things like the laws of physics ;) . There's clearly a power source on the island with powers both physical (electromagnetism obviously, plus some sort of time/dimensional qualities) and metaphysical (Jacob's immortality & other powers, etc.). I guess letting the power out caused the island to fall apart and Smoke Monster to lose his powers.


I think that's as good an answer as any. Cork out: Smokey made mortal and able to be defeated, and the island that contained him begins to fall apart. Cork back in: Smokey now gone, and island holds itself together again, allowing Hurley (and whoever else survived there still) to continue as it's protector.
And I loved that for one moment, Smokey thought he had won. Um, sorry, no, you lost your smokiness now. ;)
That whole scene of the two of them running together on the cliffs was awesome.

The Ben/Hurley 'protectors' relationship. Odd, yes. But looking back, it somehow fit. I was immediately taken back to a scene between the two sitting together, still 'enemies', yet the gentle Hurley offered Ben some of his candy bar. Besides Alex, I think Hurley may be the only one Ben ever really held any true affection for. (or at least, someone he could actually show affection for.)
The island was all Ben knew, so it made sense for him to stay.
Hurley could see and speak to the dead. I remember when Jacob told him that this ability could be seen as a blessing, that he was NOT crazy. This was something Hurley badly needed to hear, I think. So I can see Hurley being content on the island as well.


I thought Matthew Fox was particularly brilliant in the finale, especially near the end.
When he told Hurley to lower him back into the light so he can replace the cork, that was such a beautifully done scene. Jack knows he's dying anyway because of the mortal blow Smokey gave him, and Hurley - despite not wanting to believe it - now knows it too ... yeah, I cried. lol
When Jack replaced the plug and knew it had worked ... yeah, I cried lol.
When he died ... okay, you get the picture. ;)
Awesomeness. :)
"He walked into mid-autumn, hearing nothing but the winds. One night as he sat before his fire, vaguely feeling the winds urge against his shape, he looked down and saw the starred harp in his hands ..." (Mckillip, The Riddle Master trilogy)

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Re: Lost

Postby barkybree » Wed May 26, 2010 2:55 am

if there ever was a red-shirt I thought Miles was it!


LOL!!! Yeah, thought so too, but I figured he's far too annoying for them to kill off. :P

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Re: Lost

Postby locksley » Thu May 27, 2010 8:57 pm

LOL That too. :D

Proof positive that all the island stuff was real, etc:

In an interview with G4's "Attack of the Show," "Lost" Emmy award winner Michael Emerson revealed that there is an "epilogue, a lost scene" on the upcoming "Lost" DVD collection that was not part of the series finale this past Sunday.

Emerson hinted that it will be around 14 minutes in length, and will explain more about what happened after Jack died on the island and Hurley and Ben took over as its protectors.

We were given an idea in one of the final scenes that these two were on the island for a long period of time, in an exchange between the two characters while in purgatory, but this is the first time we've been told that we might actually see some footage of their time "in charge."

It's unclear whether this footage will be part of the sixth season DVD set, or only in the full series set.


http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/27 ... /?hpt=Sbin

Michael also stated: “A real plane crashed on a real island, and real survivors lived there for a period of time and had adventures. And then they passed over.”

Video of interview: (the above quote is about 2 min, 25 seconds in)

http://www.newsrunner.com/display-artic ... e+Epilogue

It was also stated that the final shot of the plane wreckage on an empty beach was something added by ABC. ;)

http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/05/26/lost- ... -wreckage/
"He walked into mid-autumn, hearing nothing but the winds. One night as he sat before his fire, vaguely feeling the winds urge against his shape, he looked down and saw the starred harp in his hands ..." (Mckillip, The Riddle Master trilogy)


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